RECORDS LiVE

Donna: Look who I found, everybody. It’s Will Hines!

Will: Greetings. Hello, everybody. Hello.

Donna: Oh, some pretty loud clapping…

Will: They’re getting warmed up.

Donna: They’ve been waiting for you, apparently.

Will: No, I’m sure that’s not true, but I will tell myself that it is. Thanks so much for having me.

Donna: Absolutely. It’s a pleasure. Well, you know, it’s crazy that you are like a multi-hyphenate at this point, essentially.

Will: Yes, there’s many areas in which I am barely succeeding.

Donna: Rather…“participating” perhaps?

Will: Yes, right.

Donna: Would you call yourself a perfectionist at all in any regard?

Will: I used to be. I used to be a perfectionist, yeah. Giving that up was one of the keys to happiness.

Donna: Umm, you know, it’s funny because one of my friends and I were having a conversation this morning and she said, “You and I are both perfectionists, but I’m not going to call it that anymore. I’m going to say we are achievers.”

Will: Oh, that’s good. Positive spin, yeah.

Donna: Right? So, I would say you are very much an achiever. Yes.

Will: An achiever…you know, I think that’s true, actually. That’s exactly right because I am in a band, and I just wanted to say very briefly the story of this band because we are the smallest musical operation possible.

Donna: Please. We love that.

Will: I mean, I’m an actor and a comedian. Lowercase “C” barely doing it but…

Donna: Isn’t everybody?

Will: Isn’t everybody? Yes. I do have a band and the thing is, I didn’t start playing or doing any music until was 49 years old. I mean, I’d loved music my whole life, and then I got a guitar, or somebody gave me a guitar. They just had like, 10 of them and I started teaching myself it and then was inspired to write songs. They were as good as you can imagine the first time you write songs, but what I was committed to was finishing them. An achiever, right? I wanted to get to the finish line. So, then I got a friend of mine who was a very talented musician to team up with me. And I was like, “Here, take these dumb little demos that I have on my iPhone of me playing the guitar and singing these songs and help make them good.” He loved that. He’s one of these guys who’s so talented that he gets paralyzed by choice. So, my job in the band is to give us direction and his job is to try to make us good. I was so excited to be contacted by the producers to talk about music because I really love it, and I don’t get a chance to talk about it a lot.

Donna: So, let’s see what you got today.

Will: Yes, here you go.

Donna: Ohh, I’m so excited. Oh my gosh. We’re starting with a classic. You guys, honestly.

Will: Yeah, Kris’ choices were so cool and varied. Let’s just get ready to really hit the basics.

Donna: Hunker down.

Will: Let’s get ready to get a little cliche.

Song Plays: The Beatles – Strawberry Fields Forever

Donna: You know, like I said when Kris was up here, we all start with the basics. The basics is where we grow.

Will: Yes, that’s right. These are basically in chronological order of when they were important to me, and so when I was a kid, I loved The Beatles. I learned to read on Beatles’ lyric sheets. My mother was an OG, first generation Beatles fan, and she indoctrinated me to like this music. My younger brother and I were huge fans. After I graduated college, I moved home because I was broke, and I had to share a room with my brother. So, I was 23 in a bunk bed with my 14-year-old brother, and we used to play Beatles music every morning. This was our favorite. It’s just one of those songs where I never get tired of it. I get new things from it every decade.

Donna: Did you get any interesting insights from your mom since she was a first-generation Beatles fan? Did she view the music in any particular way that perhaps people have lost sight of?

Will: Oh, yeah. Yes, she did. I just want to point out that this is the great mix. The old Beatles’ stereo mixes were done badly because stereo was a new technology when they made this song originally, so they didn’t know how to do it. They just put John Lennon’s voice and the drums in one channel, which is what I’m hearing here. And then over there is the guitar and the bass. It sounds fucking rad. I had a shitty car, one of the speakers broke, so I could only hear John Lennon’s voice and the drums for a while, and it sounded so good. My mother’s insight was she viewed them as a rock band. You know? She didn’t like the freaky stuff. She liked the old mop top, joyful things. And I like the more modern kind of stoner stuff. She would listen and be like, “I wish they’d be happy again.” I was like, “I don’t think they’re being sad, mom. They’re just on drugs.” These guys are inspirations for so many reasons. One way is that at the time they did this song, they were the biggest band in the world. Maybe bigger than any band has a chance of being, and they still experimented so hard. I’m sure there were record executives saying, “Do the same thing again, do the same thing again.” They never did it. They changed constantly. And this song is so radical. I mean, it changes tempo and key halfway through which just wild for a single. I love it.

Donna: Do you think The Beatles, looking back on where they started, do you think they could have ever known that they would have such a global influence over generations?

Will: There’s no way, right? Nobody had been as big as them. Although their manager, who was another guy from Liverpool, the manager got them to sign with him. He said, “I’m going to make you all as big as Elvis Presley.” And they laughed and he was right. He did it. He did it maybe more than that, which is crazy that he made good on that insane promise.

Donna: Yeah. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Well, at least they got to tour.

Will: Yeah. Unlike Elvis, right?

Donna: Yeah, unfortunately stuck in Vegas. Poor, ol’ Elvis.

Donna: Well, here’s another Elvis that we’ve got on our roster.

Will: Yes.

Song Plays: Elvis Costello – Lipstick Vogue

Donna: Good ol’ Elvis Costello.

Will: Yes, I love Elvis Costello.

Donna: I love that the drums in the beginning of this are like a little manic. They just jump right in.

Will: Yes. Totally. I mean, I think they were all hardcore on amphetamines for this whole album. Everything is double time and crazy. You know, I got into Elvis Costello when I was 17 and I was like an honors English student. Very rule following. To me he was like, “Oh, this is a version of a rebel.” I could imagine being like an angry nerd.

Donna: Ahh.

Will: Now that I’m older, I think the angry nerd thing sounds a little immature, but when I was 17, this really hit the spot. I also like that he’s very melodic, even though it is fast and sort of manic. It’s super strong melodies and harmonies.

Donna: I definitely feel remnants of Frank Zappa in here.

Will: Oh yeah, for sure. Really elaborate orchestrations like Zappa. And he met his keyboard player, who was some classically trained music guy, in London who didn’t know rock ‘n’ roll. Elvis was like, “You’re so good. I’ll teach you the rock ‘n’ roll.” There’s tons of organ and keyboard on this album because Elvis just loved this guy whose name was Steve Nieve, I think. I saw that guy solo tour, just him and a piano in the early 90s. He was a very strange man and very good.

Donna: Uh-huh. I feel like all the talented people are, yes.

Will: Yeah, yeah, I can hear Zappa in this. I hear complications in this.

Donna: Yeah, it’s very cacophonous in a way.

Will: Yeah. If I’m going to keep being biographical, my mother who introduced me to The Beatles, died when I was young. She got cancer and died right around the time I got into this, and I think I loved angry music because I was sort of going through losing a parent. And I bring that up too because her death, and I bet ya people who lose family members young, changed my life in that I never again will do anything that I wasn’t happy doing. I was like, “Life is short.” If I want to make a band at 50, I’m making a band. If I want to drive to Pomona and be at a talk show, I’m doing it. It doesn’t really matter if it makes sense. You know, that doesn’t matter.

Donna: Right. You know, honestly, the older I get, the more I realize how incredibly made-up everything is.

Will: Yeah, right.

Donna: Just absolutely everything, you know, governmental structures, hierarchies. Like, one day someone woke up and they just decided that that’s the way that it should be because it made them feel better. Not because it makes you feel better, right?

Will: Yeah, yeah. You can’t live your life for how it looks on an imaginary Wikipedia page. You have to just fucking do it.

Donna: Absolutely.

Will: Oh, I love how fast this is.

Donna: Yeah, it really takes you on like a little roller coaster ride, for sure.

Will: I love that he had glasses. I love that he just looks like a nerd. I mean, I look like a nerd. In 1987, when I got into him there was Buddy Holly and him. This is pre-Weezer, you know? This is pretty, like, mainstream nerds in rock ‘n’ roll. Also Devo, I guess.

Donna: Well, do you think that They Might Be Giants may have taken some inspiration from Elvis Costello? Because I could see some of that.

Will: Yes, absolutely.

Donna: All right. Well, talk me through that.

Song Plays: They Might Be Giants – Birdhouse in Your Soul

Will: OK, They Might Be Giants are the nerdiest band in this list, and that’s saying something. They were two friends in a high school in Massachusetts who are very square and sort of rigid. They almost got big in the early 90s, and it didn’t quite happen with this song which is sort of like a one hit wonder of the early 90s. I say a near, near hit. First of all, I love them. They’re sort of art rock, committed deadpan. Their concerts are very silly. They sit with stone face and just play these little computer numbers, and I love them. But what I really love about them is they never stopped. They did not get as big as many bands, but they’re still doing it today. They write their music.

Donna: They have a huge cult following.

Will: Yes, and I am a part of that cult. Whenever they come to LA, like once every two years, I always see them. They play the Wiltern or something. There will be 150 people in the room. I mean, I’ve seen them since I was 20 and I just like that they’re their own bosses. Like, you don’t have to stop, I guess. But yes, they definitely took something from Elvis Costello. He was going to produce one of their albums, and they said no. They were too intimidated. Their manager was like, “I got Elvis Costello to produce your album!” And they’re like, “We can’t do it. We won’t be able to perform in front of him. We love him too much.” So they said no.

Donna: That’s a horrendous miss.

Will: I think it was super dumb, but they’re definitely a “follow your bliss” kind of band, and I guess they wouldn’t be blissful in front of him.

Donna: OK, that’s valid.

Will: I also love this band because I can’t really sing too much, and a lot of these bands are people who made music despite having thin voices, like this guy. He’s got this da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da reedy voice. When I listened to it I was like, “I could do that.”

Donna: So, would you say that this song made you hopeful in a way for your future?

Will: Yes, it’s something I could do and also it doesn’t fit…I mean, this was a fairly big hit in 1990 and it’s remarkable that this was on the charts with Michael Jackson and Madonna, My Bloody Valentine and the Pixies. And then this would come on. Despite being nerds, they’re really following their own freak flag in a way that I love. I like how verbal they are, too. The lyrics don’t stop. There’s no guitar solos, so they just talk through the whole thing.

Donna: You’ve mentioned several times that you love nerdy music, so can you say a little bit more about what that definition is for you?

Will: OK, yeah. I just realized looking back the phrase I like to use more than nerdy is “committed deadpan.” Where it’s funny…It’s not a joke in and of itself. It’s funny that you’re doing it. It is like Zappa would have weird instruments in his records, you know, just ‘cause he was a genius and fascinated with different stuff. And it wouldn’t necessarily be a joke, but it would just be weird that in the middle of a Zappa song, there’s like cowbell that gets hit once or some strange glockenspiel. Committed deadpan is really what I mean. It’s just sort of like, “It’s not a joke, except from a distance. Isn’t it funny that I’m doing this?” I mean, that’s certainly what I thought when I went to my friend and said, “What if we were a band?”

Donna: So, do you feel this is where the art of acting and comedy and music overlaps for you?

Will: Yes, for sure. I mean, a lot of these people influenced my “career” and my sense of humor for sure.

Donna: What did Liz Phair end up doing for you?

Song Plays: Liz Phair – 6’1”

Will: Oh, Liz Phair. I feel like Liz Phair has gotten forgotten in a way that is a shame because she’s one of my favorites. Not forgotten, but she’s not as much as she deserves. Another lo-fi, narrow singing range, hyper verbal. Following her own style. A lot of it is very specific lyrical imagery. She also wrote all of her own songs, and she didn’t really know how to play the guitar that well. She would sort of make-up chords and keep it really simple. Teamed up with a guy named Brad Wood, who plays the bass on this album and is really good. You hear her voice is so low. This song is called “6’1’’” and it’s something about her feeling like she’s six foot one and not five foot two and trying to break up with a guy to feel free and open again. It’s just so personal, and I think she had a boyfriend who was in a band. And he dumped her, and she wrote this album and then got bigger than he ever was. Which I kind of like the irony of that. When I was learning guitar, I learned to play her songs ‘cause they’re not too hard. She has a cool little stutter step where the guitar is in lockstep with the bass and then the lyrics don’t fall in a strict cadence with the beat, and she gets a lot of mileage out of that.

Donna: It’s like her signature move, so to speak.

Will: Yes, yes. And when she came out, which was in ‘93, this album came out. It was right before Alanis Morissette, Courtney Love, PJ Harvey. There was about to be a flurry – No Doubt with Gwen Stefani, Garbage with Shirley Manson. She was right before that, and it was very male dominated on the radio. It was like Nirvana and all the grunge guys, very male. Then she sort of came out and outsold all of them for a while, and I just think she’s really cool. And I have an aversion to bullies. So, I didn’t like bully music when I was a kid like AC/DC, Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, which I love now. I’ve gotten into AC/DC as a 50-year-old, which is insane. I’ve blasted Back in Black in my car, and I look like a crazy person. But at this age I liked thin, nerdy, nonaggressive, happy sounding music and she did it.

Donna: You know, I do get that though, because there’s a lot of music that I look back on from like 10, 15 years ago that I used to hate. Now I’m like, “Wow.” You know what it now could be because back then it was overplayed.

Will: Yes, right.

Donna: You know? You’re just inundated with the same thing.

Will: You get some distance from whatever it stands for, and then you can just enjoy it as a thing, yes.

Donna: Exactly. Because then it becomes nostalgic, and then you get to kind of keep it for yourself.

Will:  I refused to play Led Zeppelin when I was in high school because to me that was bully music. Then when I was 30, I put it in. I was like, “I should just listen to this as cultural education.” And I was like, “Oh my god, it fuckin’ rocks. So incredibly hard.” It’s like, “What have I been missing? I’m an idiot.” When you’re not worried about it being your identity, it’s easier to just sort of take it for what it is.

Donna: I met someone today who had Jimmy Page as their lock screen.

Will: Yeah. I mean, he’s such an insane, master craftsman.

Donna: Oh, absolutely.

Will: There’s that documentary, This Might Get Loud, where it’s him and Jack White and The Edge. I love that documentary. They all have such different ways of being good. But one of the unintentionally funniest parts to me is when Jimmy Page picks up his guitar and starts playing “Whole Lotta Love” and it’s like, “Oh yeah, this guy is 100 times better than either of you ever will be at playing the guitar.” Even though they’re so talented in other ways, but they were just like, “Yeah, we can’t do what you’re doing right now.”

Donna: Do you think that’s a natural talent or is it a learned talent?

Will: For Jimmy Page?

Donna: Yeah.

Will:  Both. I think he was obsessed as a child and also gifted. He was a session musician at Abbey Road when he was 19 or something. He has a crazy pedigree. And sort of maybe quasi kidnapped a 14-year-old girl for a while. He’s got his issues, but a hell of a guitarist. Nobody would argue that.

Donna: Haha. Well, you know, we don’t have to hold grudges, but we sure as heck should remember them.

Will: Yes, I don’t know the full story. I got so into Led Zeppelin in my 30s and I was like, “Jimmy Page is God” and then somebody’s like, “Here’s everything bad about Jimmy Page.” And I was like, “Yes, alright. Well, I just like the music.”

Donna: Well, what do you think of Ray Charles?

Song Plays: Ray Charles – Just For A Thrill

Will: Man, this is it.

Donna: This is it?

Will: This dude’s voice is for real. OK, so I used to live in New York City. I moved to New York City in my 20s. Ray Charles was playing. He would just die a couple years later, and on a whim, I went and got a partial view ticket back row of Alice Tully Hall. It was one of the most incredible concerts I’ve ever seen. This old man at the piano. His voice sounded as good as it ever did. This is before Ray came out. I didn’t really know anything about Ray Charles. I was by myself, and I just melted. I spent months just listening to him.

Donna: So, what about the sound of Ray Charles is so intertwined with New York for you now in your mind, because it must be after that experience?

Will: Yes, I mean this is a great “drunk in a bar at the end of the night song,” you know? He’s got a great smile in his voice. I think even when it’s a sad song like this, there’s something joyful in it. I mean, God just gave him an instrument. I think anything he sings is compelling. But yeah, it’s New York. You know, it’s kind of classic New York Upper East Side piano bar, martinis.Spending too much money trying to look good in clothes you don’t understand.

Donna: Did you have all those collective experiences while you were living there?

Will: I tried to be a “dress up and go to the bar” kind of guy for a couple of months before I was like, “What am I doing?” You really can just try on new identities every couple of weeks if you want in that town. California is a little bit more isolated. You’re in your houses, but New York, you’re out in the crowds and you can sort of let yourself be affected. You go down to Wall Street and act like a douchebag. You go to the East Village and you’re a bohemian. You go to Williamsburg and you’re like a trust fund kid. You know? You pick up those styles. I really loved it. I was there for 12 years, I guess.

Donna: Oh wow, that’s a long time. You must have really fallen in love.

Will: Yeah, it was the first city I ever lived in. I grew up in a small town in Connecticut near the casinos. Not the rich part of Connecticut. The shitty part. And so, New York City was crazy. You know, it was overwhelmingly cool.

Donna: So what lured you to LA?

Will: I started doing acting in New York. I started teaching improv and doing stand up and doing acting, and I made it just enough that I could justify trying it. So, when I was 43, I moved. Again, really too late to be trying it, but I had a couple of friends who had moved, and I was like, “I’ve never lived on the West Coast.” I wanted to see it. I want to see what it’s like. California, if you don’t grow up there, it’s mythical. There’s so many songs about it. You have a vision. I think it’s like New York. I mean, California lives in everybody’s head. So, I wanted to have a shot at being a Californian. Now I’ve been here for 10 years.

Donna: Oh, that’s amazing. Well, congratulations.

Will: Yeah. I mean, still feels new, but a pretty good tenure.

Donna: What do you think are some East Coast habits that you will never let go of?

Will: Talk too fast. I always want to order food at 10:30 at night and everything in California closes at 8:00. I can’t believe in horoscopes or tarot, no matter how much I try. Yeah, New York is fast. It’s just impatient, and I have some of that.

Donna: So do any of those themes translate into your music as well?

Will: Yes, my music. The biggest flaw of the two – my friend and I made two records – is the rhythm. It’s pop-punk, four beats fast, which is fine, but we didn’t vary it enough. In the last six months, I’ve been forcing myself to play Prince songs to try to beat some rhythm into my stupid body. The songs are a little like somebody’s rushing across the street is the vibe of the stuff I’ve made.

Donna: Mm-hmm. And what do you feel is the main message of the music that you’ve created?

Will: I write my music chords first, then melody, then gibberish, then words. So, there is almost no message. I just try to make sticky phrases. I feel like a lot of my favorite songs I don’t know what they’re about. You know the song “Flagpole Sitta” by Harvey Danger? The “duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh, da.” What’s that about? I have no idea. But some of the phrases just stick in my head like Rage Against Machine. I don’t know. I just try to make sticky phrases, so I don’t have a message.

Donna: This next song by Neutral Milk Hotel…I absolutely love this record.

Will: Oh, great!

Song Plays: Neutral Milk Hotel – King of Carrot Flowers, Pt. One

Donna: I love this record, but also, I love mostly the symphony of the record and the melodies and the feel of it. I remember where I was when I first heard it, you know? But I also don’t know what half of this record is about. It’s very…

Will: It’s very obtuse.

Donna: Absolutely.

Will: I mean, it’s about Anne Frank. And it’s about Jesus.

Donna: Definitely about Jesus.

Will: And it’s about trying to find happiness. I don’t know. He’s a real weirdo. The guy who made it. Jeff Mangum is his name, and he’s a true eccentric. But it’s such a unique sound.

Donna: Yeah. I believe I heard this record for the first time in 2013, and to be honest, I thought it was recently published in 2013.

Will: It sounds like the 2000s.

Donna: Yeah, it does. Absolutely. Which is crazy because it was so ahead of its time.

Will: So ahead. I don’t even know what these instruments are, but they’re just like hypnotic to me. Another low voice guy. This is part of the Elephant 6 label. That’s the record label, and they were just a bunch of friends in Athens. Of Montreal came out of this and Apples In Stereo. They all would help each other make stuff. And then a lot of them got sort of famous in the early 2000s and this guy never recorded another album. He sort of fell. He said he kind of collapsed. He couldn’t do it. He was like this shy, awkward guy. And I then he’ll do a tour to raise money for his friends, or he’ll go to the Elephant 6 reunion concerts. And I’m fascinated with him. Fascinated. Watch his concert footage because there’s only like 15 minutes of it available so it doesn’t take long to see everything this guy’s done live.

Donna: Yeah. If you guys ever have the opportunity to get your hands on this record on vinyl.

Will: Yeah, it’s called In the Aeroplane Over the Sea.

Donna: Yeah. In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. Just buy it. Just buy it.

Will: Yeah, it’s magic. It’s a magic album.

Donna: It’s a really cool record. There’s a lot of points in it where it made me really go like, “Oh, what’s that?” or “Why is he singing about that right now?” But you know, once you kind of get over that initial shock, it just flows so well.

Will: Yeah, I agree.

Donna: That’s kind of all I can say about it.

Will:  I think it’s a magic album. Yeah.

Donna: It truly is. Oh my gosh. So why this particular song off the entire album since you love it so much?

Will: It’s the first track, and a friend of mine when I was in New York and I was starting to do improv comedy, which would soon become a big part of my life. He was a friend of mine. This was 1999, so the album had not been out for too long and he was like, “Have you heard of this album?” Hadn’t heard of it. He’s like, “Let’s put it on.” And we were just stoned and he put it on and we kind of silently listened to the whole thing. It was like one of those kind of magic record listening experiences, and so I just remember the first track right away being like, “Oh, what the fuck is? What the fuck is this sound? What is that?” That big, bassy 12-string guitar. I think it is, or I don’t know what it is, but I love it. So, just sentimental association with the first time I heard it.

Donna: I had a similar experience, and it was in my friend’s den and we were just having a couple beers. And her sister comes into the room and just puts this record on.My ears just immediately perked up, and I was like, “What is that?”

Will: I’m glad to hear that cause it’s another one that I feel has been sort of forgotten. It was all the rage for indie music, alternative white boys of the late 90s who all fucking lost their minds over Neutral Milk Hotel. But it’s kind of gotten faded away, even amongst that crowd. I don’t really hear it brought up and I’m like, “You’re missing it.”

Donna: Mm-hmm. The funny part is, though, I feel like whenever I ask anybody about this record, most of the time they know it. It’s like it found its way back into pop culture a little bit.

Will: OK. I love that.

Donna: I feel like it has strong lore, you know?

Will: Yeah, there are records like that, right? Like The Zombies’ record, there’s certain records that everybody sort of discovers on their own, but everybody discovers them, which is kind of fun.

Donna: Yeah, all in due time, right? Well, where is your band headed next? What do you think is going to be your next endeavor musically?

Will: We’re recording another album, and my goal is for the songs to be at least theoretically danceable. Which is not true of anything I’ve done so far, but we’ll see.

Donna: I love that you’re bestowing a challenge upon yourself. I think that’s incredibly noble and really the only way to grow.

Will: I hope so. I hope so.

Donna: So, props to you.

Will: Thank you.

Donna: And thank you so much for joining me here tonight.

Will: My pleasure.

Donna: Thank you so much for coming all the way out here to support our show.

Will: Happy to. It’s a beautiful set. It’s crazy.

Donna: Thank you! And thank you everybody so much for being here.